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2015-01-09 10:57 6999639 Anonymous (Untitled.png 859x418 645kB)
Will this be good or bad for Math and Science?

4 min later 6999646 Anonymous
Personally I would support such a bill because education is extremely important. HOWEVER, I really hate it things that the government pays for are stated as being "free". It's not free, it's being paid for by taxpayers. Its intentionally misleading and it pisses me off.

11 min later 6999659 Anonymous
>>6999646 I agree with this post. I'd also like to add that we wouldn't need to rely on community colleges to prepare people for the workforce if we sorted out our K-12 education.

36 min later 6999719 Anonymous
>>6999646 True, but in the long run you save money by having a more educated workforce. Not to mention that perhaps your kids might use this.

40 min later 6999725 Anonymous
>>6999639 Great, even more competition for jobs. Thanks a lot.

47 min later 6999739 Anonymous
>>6999725 If you're competent enough to be in the 80th percentile, why do you care about community college students "competing" for your jobs?

50 min later 6999744 Anonymous
>>6999646 >paid for by tax payers Yeah and everyone pays taxes, including the students. What's the problem?

51 min later 6999747 Anonymous
They would pull this right as I'm leaving. Fuckers.

52 min later 6999749 Anonymous
please educate an ignorant uropean. What are two years of community college? Is it like a bachelor degree? Isnt the tuition usually around 38k per year? if so then 10% of it is insignificant for someone who cannot afford the other 90% or am i mixing up school and university here?

52 min later 6999751 Anonymous
>>6999639 nobody is going to do math and science because its difficult and requires work and talent. the only competition this is going to create is in business and "studies" degrees.

54 min later 6999754 Anonymous
>>6999749 community college is sophmore level classes and below. its a remedial school for poor people, criminals, and other fuck ups.

56 min later 6999762 Anonymous
>>6999749 It's like upgrading your high-school with for-credit courses that sometimes count towards a BSc or BA when you transfer to a better university. It's a nice thing for people that may have made poor choices in high-school or didn't do their best for whatever reason.

1 hours later 6999766 Anonymous
Leftists can't raise IQs

1 hours later 6999772 Anonymous
>>6999766 >implying iq isn't malleable to an extent Back to >>>/pol/ pls

1 hours later 6999776 Anonymous
>>6999749 Community college usually only costs about $2k a semester and its supposed to be the equivalent of the first 2 years at a senior college/university.

1 hours later 6999777 Anonymous
>>6999749 Community college degrees are two years (associate degree) in technical shit. They're also pretty cheap. Dental hygienists, nurses, paralegals, welders, pre-K teachers, technicians, etc.

1 hours later 6999780 Anonymous (Algebra Terrorism.jpg 236x236 7kB)
>>6999639 >>College Algebra >Why they fuck are they wasting our time and money with this shit! Just give us our pointless pieces of paper saying we're employable already! Yeah, it's going to be bad for math and science

1 hours later 6999790 Anonymous
>>6999772 no bully pls

1 hours later 6999795 Anonymous
>>6999780 Most Community Colleges I've looked into with how they grade / rank classes, actually make College Algebra an unaccredited remedial class, and starting at Calc 1 and Statistic that most of them start making them accredited. Which is different from a lot of State and Private Universities, some even ranked-well nationally, which make College Algebra a accredited class and allow people to use it to pass gen ed requirements.

1 hours later 6999799 Anonymous
>>6999639 one of the benefits of CC that people don't tell you, is that your GPA will get wiped when you transfer to a 4 year institution.

1 hours later 6999806 Anonymous
>>6999795 I don't understand why Gen Ed is a thing. It's a waste of time and there's no reason anyone should have to study anything unrelated to their major.

1 hours later 6999812 Anonymous
>>6999806 how else is the school going to milk you for more tuition/book money?

1 hours later 6999813 Anonymous
>>6999806 Many schools will actually make exceptions for autists who can only math.

1 hours later 6999816 Anonymous
>>6999719 >by having a more educated workforce Would people stop buying into that bullshit already. That's what they said about everyone going to middle school before it just turned into elementary school part 2. That's what they said about everyone going to high school before it turned into elementary school part 3 - now with more daycare! And now there's calls to streamline university education to what the workplace demands (aka an elementary school education) and to improve graduation rates (aka water it down to elementary school levels). Education will soon cease to exist...

1 hours later 6999817 Anonymous
>>6999799 But most schools also have a minimum grade for the class to be transferred.

1 hours later 6999818 Anonymous
>>6999806 so you're not a bumbling idiot that literally only knows one thing

1 hours later 6999819 Anonymous
>>6999744 The problem is that the advertisements for the bill use the word "free" but it's not free. Every time you try to point out that something political is using deceptive language, people jump to the conclusion that you're against the political stance that it supports. That's not what the problem is! Even if a position is true and correct, that doesn't make it okay to use lies and deception to push your point.

1 hours later 6999821 Anonymous
>>6999749 It's like A level high school in the UK

1 hours later 6999822 Anonymous
>>6999818 Isn't that what high school is for?

1 hours later 6999825 Anonymous
>>6999806 >It's a waste of time and there's no reason anyone should have to study anything unrelated to their major The cancer killing education. >>6999822 It was replaced with daycare in America.

1 hours later 6999826 Anonymous
>>6999822 high school is to prevent edgy faggot from spending 100% of their time doing drugs and just acting with general faggotry

1 hours later 6999828 Anonymous
>>6999816 It's easier to throw money at the problem instead of reforming high school education

1 hours later 6999830 Anonymous
>>6999822 But if colleges didn't require you to be a well-rounded student, why would high schools? Why would middle schools? Why wouldn't we just pick our favorite subject in elementary school and ride it out until we die of autism?

1 hours later 6999832 Anonymous
>>6999822 Have you ever been to a US high school? High school is to keep children too young to enter the work force out of the streets and the judicial system by inundating them with volumes of busy work.

1 hours later 6999836 Anonymous
>>6999817 its useful for applying for scholarships, interships, etc. you can transfer to a university, btfo one semester, and shit on nerds with your new 4.0. its especially useful if your "weed out" classes are <Sophomore level.

1 hours later 6999842 Anonymous
>>6999836 true networking and doing research sucks ass as a transfer tho

1 hours later 6999847 Anonymous (1383083038225.jpg 320x240 35kB)
>>6999639 It depends. If this proposal were to actually go through anytime soon, the biggest issue would most likely be availability of classes. I'm in the same boat as >>6999747 just finished CC last year and transferred into a 4 year uni. The same trends exist at community colleges and 4-year universities, there are good students and there are bad students. Good students will work their hardest to get into a good school/do well in their courses, while bad students will just dick around. I don't know how the "free" funding would be distributed, but as someone who enrolled straight out of high school due to financial issues, nothing is more aggravating than seeing people slack off at a "last chance/stepping stone school. Worst case scenario is a wave of idiots enrolling who were too lazy to do so beforehand, yet wind up dropping out anyways. Not sure why /sci/ cares though, nearly every post I've seen on this board shits all over CCs and everyone involved with them.

1 hours later 6999859 Anonymous
>>6999806 Some Schools have their general ed requirements based around the types of fields they specialize in teaching in, and what they, as an institution, believe is important to learn; and have the expectations and requirements of their students to reflect the image of the school. For example, Cal-tech requires you to take a bunch of Math, Physics, Chemistry, Computer Science, and Technology courses--instead of art--as their gen ed requirement; as they believe that's what they, as a Science-focused University, is important for most of their undergrads to learn, no matter what field they major in. University Chicago, Yale, and Harvard are all famous for having their gen ed requirements to focus on liberal arts, and have done so historically, and traditionally believed that all of their students should be well-learned in various classical fields, such as: history, philosophy, literature, classical language, math, ect. Which I do believe are legitimate reasons to have general ed requirements. Someone who graduated from Cal-tech is probably going to get bonus points when applying to science-related jobs--as no matter what their major was, it's likely they have some experience in most major fields of science--over someone who just went to a decent random State or Private University.

2 hours later 6999963 Anonymous
>>6999816 You do realize that an 18 year old is not of the same mindset as a 14 year old. Also, community college is not compulsory, so you are already working with a better pool of students.

15 hours later 7001088 Anonymous
>>6999777 Nurses? A nurse in UK has to do a full 3 year degree study, they are not 'cheap' but highly qualified professionals.... cripes hope i am never ill in USA

16 hours later 7001122 Anonymous
>>7001088 The schools are cheap, not the people. Learn2context. ~$1700/semester, 4 semesters, 45k starting.

32 hours later 7002616 Anonymous
>>6999639 There're a mexican guy in my math program who's at the top of his class but recently I found out he's actually a little bit older and he already has a kid. I guess what happened was that he was a bit of a slacker back in high school and nobody really saw any potential in him, and he messed around and got a girl pregnant. He spent a few years working minimum wage jobs until he finally got fed up and applied to a CC and transferred over here.

32 hours later 7002625 Anonymous
>>7002616 We should turn this into a movie whereas underachieving minority becomes great.

32 hours later 7002642 Anonymous
Worse overall, no contest, it will funnel students into shit degrees. Yes we need better education for a more advanced world, no it will not happen when you have Fashion and English majors getting paid to jerk off. The funding plan is probably also heavily weighted towards immigrants and single mothers over native born males. I literally already had my CC paid for (3 years because I suck) and they'd give me $1k back each year because it was so much. They'll probably also give money to part-time people which sounds like a good thing, until you realize now if you don't have an AS you'll be rubbish-bin-able, and means they can enslave part-time/minimm wage people for even longer because they won't have enough time and energy for a shitty job, family, and education. >yes goy, it's perfectly fine to have an AS at 30 with no children while working for $8 an hour and living with your parents, you should be grateful you are so privileged >>6999795 Mine, Genesee Community College, has recently been looking into 091/092 math being GPA courses. Seriously. They use the Hawkes System too, which is trash and makes worse students, but now they found a way to force even more shit work on students while hiring two people slightly above minimum wage and increasing administrator powers. It also improves their income further when 2/3rds of an Introductory Stats class drop out because they weren't mathed properly and switch to an even worse major.

33 hours later 7002648 Anonymous
>>6999819 You're a typical amerifat with an attention span of 7 seconds. It's not only free in the long run to have an better educated work force, it's profitable. There are two ways to succeed, be cheap or be good as a worker. You really think US will beat India and China in the first category?

33 hours later 7002671 Anonymous
>>6999646 >Its intentionally misleading No, It isn't. You're paranoid. I would be interested in hearing how you would word it.

33 hours later 7002682 Anonymous
>>7002648 >It's not only free in the long run to have an better educated work force, it's profitable. That retarded doe. Americans have clearly one of the most educated workforces in the world, but the degrees are all off-profession degrees because of the need to have pieces of paper for jobs. I literally know: >the only BS's in math I know doing nothing math related >a sperglord with AS's in CompSci and Business being a grocery store sectional manager, though he places orders but still only makes like $11 an hour >a BS in teaching that caves under the administration of Elementary education (needing a four year degree to teach first graders, seriously?) >a Master's in Psych working a $45k job in Los Angelos which is basically minimum wage >a millwright who is in his 50s who was competing against 100 people for three jobs... in the city over, who is only successful somewhere else because his devotion to working overtime and for <$20 an hour That doesn't count the Fashion or Gen Ed majors I know that do jack shit. At this point in America, there are two very close older women I know that work for <$12 an hour, one as labor entry for Time Warner, the other with an AS in Business that does database management at 61 and commutes 40 mins each way. A third has her AS in Engineering but works at Home Depot (she's Peruvian) because she had kids late. "Pro education" is codeword for slave labor.

33 hours later 7002684 Anonymous
>>7002682 Can't forget the BS Nurse who works as an executive secretary, to a non-medical company. Only reason she couldn't go on to Master in Nursing is because of a B in one class.

33 hours later 7002685 Anonymous
>>6999744 It's going to subsidize weak-ass McColleges and take out competition because muh feelings and muh legacy

33 hours later 7002704 Anonymous
>>7002682 saging, but I think the Elementary teacher is actually a Master's Either way, she literally would cry in the bathrooms and quit her job because there were two boys being assholes to each other, and she was getting paid slave wages to teach the class with no power.

34 hours later 7002736 Anonymous
>>6999639 Whelp, here come more taxes, yet again

34 hours later 7002752 Anonymous
>>7002736 >money that would be left in savings accounts, spent on imported goods is instead spent on education >this is bad

34 hours later 7002791 Anonymous
>>6999639 Problem isn't lack of demand. Problem is supply. Not enough courses for CC students. Lowering tuition = Demand SHOT TO THE SKY Not enough supply = waitlist after waitlist Want an example? Look at California's CC before and after fee hike in 2008 ish. One class went from $80 to $200

35 hours later 7002796 Anonymous
>>6999719 The overwhelming majority of work doesn't require education. All this is is funneling tax money into community college executives' wallets.

35 hours later 7002808 Anonymous
>>7002796 More and more unskilled jobs are being outsourced or made redundant through technological advancements. A majority of work may not require education, but it certainly is not overwhelming. Having an educated population has also a plethora of social benefits.

35 hours later 7002816 Anonymous
>>7002752 >I don't have any money in a savings account

35 hours later 7002824 Anonymous
>>7002791 i'll be a dick if I didn't offer solutions 1. Expand Federal Loan Program for Accredited Medical School (M.D. and D.O.) aka Sallie Mae such that students can take up to $100,000 in subsidized (interest paid) loans. 1a. Subsidize tuition for medical students specializing in general practice. 2. Instead of granting all lower tuition, create a scholarship program for community college students Terms are such that graduate with this degree (Math/CS/Nursing) within span of 2 years (if full time) or 3 years (if part-time), will have their tuition refunded. 3. Increase money for trade / apprentice programs. Seriously. That's what community college was created for, and nowadays, no one learns the trades anymore. 4. Have each school do an analysis for "bottleneck" courses, which is required for graduation, but lack the talent to teach it. At my community college, it's discrete mathematics, a requirement for CS. Only 1 teacher teaches it per semester, because they don't bother finding more faculty, and the class is only 40 students. So only 80 students get through at one time. FFS, it's not that hard to find an unemployed Maths graduate student/post doc to teach discrete maths 5. Lay down a transfer curriculum, such that those who get these courses down will be guaranteed admission to a 4-year school (in state and out of state)

35 hours later 7002826 Anonymous
>>7002808 >More and more unskilled jobs are being outsourced or made redundant through technological advancements ...and are replaced by unskilled service positions or the dole. Meanwhile, wages for skilled labor is at an all time low because every fucker and his dog is going to college. That's the whole point of the "everyone should go to college!!" craze: oversaturate every field that still pays well so companies can slash wages. That's why every tech company in the USA keeps blathering on about there being a shortage of STEM people, even though there's a bigger surplus than has ever existed. They just want more H1B visas so they can bring in Indians who will work for 35k a year with no benefits for the rest of their lives. The endgame is for every position below CEOs and lobbyists to pay near the poverty line. I'm confident we'll see that in our lifetime; the people in power will keep bringing in desperate immigrants and keep tricking idiot kids to going to college so that there's never a single job whose applicants have the slightest amount of bargaining power.

35 hours later 7002841 Anonymous
>>7002824 6. Through some federal power that I'm unaware of, and to fund the reform, make the 12th grade of high school entirely optional.

35 hours later 7002846 Anonymous
>>7002826 > unskilled service positions What? > or the dole Gee, I wonder how unskilled people will ever get off the dole. > wages for skilled labor is at an all time low because every fucker and his dog is going to college. No, that's not the reason. Income and wealth are becoming more concentrated in the top 1% and even 0.01%. People like Piketty argue that it's because of a relatively high return on capital (think London rental market) that means capital is accruing to the super wealthy. The labour market isn't supply and demand. Companies are struggling to hire workers with the right skills, it isn't some fucking conspiracy.

35 hours later 7002850 Anonymous
>>6999777 This. Also many people do it so that they can transfer to a full time university and have all of their shitty classes out of the way (better than taking them in giant rooms with 300 other students). As a side effect transfer students also don't have to do all the first-year student requirements like live in dorms for a year and stuff. It's a huge discount and you can start taking community college courses while you're in high school if you want.

35 hours later 7002858 Anonymous
>>7002616 This guy sounds a lot like me (older mexican guy), except I don't have a kid and I'm in pure math.

35 hours later 7002863 Anonymous
>>7002642 Ayy Rochester area represent.

35 hours later 7002876 Anonymous
>>7002846 >Companies are struggling to hire workers with the right skills No they aren't. Ever job posting gets literal hundreds of applications, many from people hideously overqualified. An entirely new step in the job application process has been created: finding as many reasons as possible to trash resumes so that the pile becomes something manageable.

35 hours later 7002879 Anonymous
>>7002876 People applying doesn't mean they're qualified.

36 hours later 7002885 Anonymous
wtf? the CC I went to was about 600-700 dollars a semester just for 13-15 units which is considered full time. If you include books, itll be somewhere around 1000-1200. All this will do is make CC even more filled than they already are, taking longer to get the two degree (which already takes more than 2 years for almost everyone) right now people finish is in 2.5-3.5 years due to all the requirements and classes filling up

36 hours later 7002898 Anonymous
>>7002879 Bachelors level education makes graduates more than qualified for most positions. Almost all jobs in STEM are quite easy with the right background. It's the old trap of "The only qualification we accept is previous experience in an identical position". This results in a constantly growing sea of increasingly desperate but entirely qualified people, and a static and shrinking group of people who have been in the field since before the education propaganda bloated the workforce going from position to position as their roles are phased out and replaced with low paying alternatives. It's simple really: back in the early 2000s, companies like IBM were sick of paying their technical people enormous salaries, so they lobbied media outlets and politicians to push STEM education as the greatest thing ever. This resulted in millions of people becoming qualified for and expecting jobs, but while STEM has been growing it has never grown anything close to fast enough. Thus, the market saturated, the graduates became desperate, and the executives could pick from thousands of potential workers and pay them practically nothing compared to what their fathers had made. It's happened before: In the 90s, lawyers were in high demand and being paid extremely well. Law offices pushed legal education as the perfect career, millions of people went into law, there weren't millions of jobs for them, so salaries crashed. In the 80s, business was the Next Big Thing, so everyone who could tie a tie went to business school, so big office companies could hire only the best and pay them nothing. It's happened again and again and again and people keep falling for it.

36 hours later 7002915 Anonymous
While I'm not sure how it will influence math and science It may save the bachelor degree though. By funneling some of the excess students away from 4 year universities as their first choice it could be the needed method to raise the bachelor's degree "worth" again and lower student loans since less students would be immediately going to big colleges first. After all most people are really just looking for decent jobs that give them enough freedom to have a life.

36 hours later 7002923 Anonymous
>>7002915 This. Full university programs won't be so overtaxed by excess students, providing a general improvement in education quality and indirectly benefitting STEM.

37 hours later 7002965 Anonymous
>>6999639 It will just make CC the new high school. Shit heads will just go because they feel obligated. On the positive sides, slackers and idiots will fail out of it.

49 hours later 7004218 Anonymous
>>7002648 >to have an better educated work force Going to CC ⇏ Getting a better education Most people using this will be concerned solely with getting an AA/AS degree on their resume and bitch at every educational requirement forcing them to learn something. Eventually CCs will buckle and turn into the new grade schools, defeating the purpose of this.

49 hours later 7004240 Anonymous
>>6999719 >>6999739 >True, but in the long run you save money by having a more educated workforce. Not to mention that perhaps your kids might use this. *by having the right education. With that logic, we'll soon be adding more tiers to education. It's a problem of credentialism. It's a vicious cycle where employers have expected employees with the most credentials, the accumulation of the greatest number of acronyms and accolades to list, to be the most innovative and productive. In response, government and education tries to make available more opportunities for the 'under-credentialed' to add their own laundry list of crap to their resume. At the end of the day, resumes are becoming ever longer lists of junk, acronyms, supposed accolades that ultimately don't tell us anything more meaningful about potential applicants. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying this bill is a bad idea at all. There are many citizens that could really make use of this help; there's no reason they should have to go without more than anyone else, to break the vicious cycle of credentialism in our workforce. Still, it's ultimately a bandage on a systemic issue.

49 hours later 7004255 Anonymous
>>6999639 Dumb idea. There would be an influx of dumb CC students who would go there for the sake of it because it costs nothing. Repercussions would include more teachers to hire. There has to be some small penalty for attending college, or people don't understand the value of what they are sucking out of taxpayer's wallets. $3-4k a year is nothing as an investment into your education, so I see no purpose to this bill. It's more of a feel-good idea proposed by some SJW. If someone was serious about their education, they would invest that small amount of money into themselves, if they aren't confident or serious about it, they wouldn't. It's not as much about the money, as it is a filter so we don't waste money on incompetent students who won't succeed in their degree. In addition, we would oversaturate the job market with incompetetent workers who would otherwise be working an entry job. We still need people working in McDs.

49 hours later 7004264 Anonymous
>>6999806 General education is a way of subsidizing the professors who wasted money on their bullshit degree by forcing STEM students to learn their bullshit. It's cyclical punishment. For the people who say that students need to open up their minds to other fields, it's a nice theory but it doesn't work in practice. If someone was genuinely interested in learning about other things, they will spend the time and effort to do so. I scour the internet learning many things outside of my degree (CS). Most GEs don't teach anything of real value anyways since they are taught poorly, as I said it's a way of subsidizing professors who wasted money on their bullshit degrees. If a student is not interested in a certain branch of knowledge, and is forced to take it, he/she will just try to get a B-, and forget the preposterous/useless things he/she learned.

50 hours later 7004321 Anonymous
>>7004218 Better they do it to CCs than to universities as they currently are.

50 hours later 7004324 Anonymous (figure8.gif 708x470 40kB)
>>7004321 >implying undergraduate education hasn't been steadily stripped of its value

50 hours later 7004353 Anonymous
>>7002898 got any outside sources on that? im interested

50 hours later 7004375 Anonymous
>>6999646 Property taxes already subsidize our local community college heavily. As a result, it's very inexpensive to attend. I don't see why a student can't come up with $3000/year or so in loans or savings, to pay for the rest. The student himself benefits the most, he should invest in his future. If it's totally free, you're just going to get people who aren't serious and are just going because they've got nothing else to do.

50 hours later 7004400 Anonymous
>>7002616 This is what CC is for. If he's serious, he should be able to come up with the cash or get loans. If CC is free, he's going to be in class surrounded by people who aren't mature enough to be there.

50 hours later 7004416 Anonymous
>>7002965 >On the positive sides, slackers and idiots will fail out of it. Yes, but my property taxes will be paying their tuition until they fail.

50 hours later 7004429 Anonymous
>>7004264 >subsidizing the professors Aren't most CC courses taught by adjunct professors who are paid peanuts? There would be a ton of cash coming in to CCs from this program. They will bloat their administrations, and hire few full time faculty. There will be a tremendous incentive to give grades above the cut-off level for qualification, resulting in more grade inflation.

67 hours later 7005567 Anonymous
>>6999766 >Leftists can't raise IQs >Rightists cannot identify high-IQ poor people who can't go to college for monetary reasons

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