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2012-12-20 06:57 30003362 Anonymous Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (1232332400000.jpg 675x900 328kB)
why is every SICP material is based on some obscure or retarded language? why not use C/C++?

1 min later 30003394 Anonymous
Learn to program, not a programming language.

1 min later 30003399 Anonymous
>>30003362 >C++ >not retarded

2 min later 30003408 Anonymous
>Scheme >obscure or retarded

3 min later 30003430 Anonymous
>>30003394 sorry but this doesn't make goddamn sense

3 min later 30003431 Anonymous
>>30003362 The UC system has switched to Python. Lisp/Scheme is just nice because it's an easy to learn language with a simple interpreter. That's like asking why you first started learning how to speak to people by using words like "dad hungry" instead of phrases like "father, I'm hungry". Sure you could just jump straight in, but it'll take you a little longer. Now people who want to use SICP with Python need a primer on Python, which means they're spending an extra couple of weeks that they didn't have to before.

4 min later 30003453 Anonymous
>>30003430 Learning to program is different from learning the language. You can be a master of English grammar yet still be unable to communicate what you want to.

4 min later 30003471 Anonymous
>>30003394 >Learn to program, not a programming language. This. >>30003430 It's better said as "learn how to program, don't learn programming language syntax." You've probably came from some stupid code-monkey site/course that somehow implied learning how to program is as simple as learning syntax. If so, your mind has been damaged beyond recovery and you should find a new hobby/field/

5 min later 30003483 Anonymous (134549608389[1].jpg 590x518 91kB)
>You will never lick the sand from Stallman's smelly fungus-ridden feet. ;___;

9 min later 30003560 Anonymous
>>30003453 writing optimized code efficiently requires skills and an understanding that depends on the particular language very much, so you're just wasting your time with shit like Scheme this is very different from human languages, unless you're merely a script kiddie and not a serious programmer

11 min later 30003593 Anonymous
>>30003560 If you think all it takes is understanding a specific language (IE syntax), you are a shit programmer.

11 min later 30003600 Anonymous
>>30003560 >wasting your time learning to program You sound like a coder, not a programmer. You enjoy writing your 100% CPU optimized bits of code here or there. You'll be working as a coder with 30 years of experience still working under an actual programmer who makes more than $50/hr for the rest of your life.

12 min later 30003607 Anonymous
>>30003431 >Sure you could just jump straight in, but it'll take you a little longer. when they teach you math etc, do they fuck around a lot? it's pretty much sink or swim becoming a good programmer shouldn't be easy either

13 min later 30003639 Anonymous (1353373507779.png 274x271 178kB)
One day SICP will be written for Haskell...and all of you imperative language devs will bow to the Almighty functional paradigm.

14 min later 30003655 Anonymous
>>30003600 you sure sound like a script kiddie who has no idea what he's talking about so trust me, little buddy, programming is not like writing prose in English

14 min later 30003660 Anonymous
>>30003639 What is learn you a haskell?

14 min later 30003664 Anonymous
Learning to program can be done alongside learning a first language. There's only so much theory you can learn before you need to get your hands dirty with at least reading some code. I think OP is merely arguing that if they're going to use a language to teach with, it should be one that will still be useful to know/be familiar with once you're finished your initial learning. Plus you need to keep in mind that people learning programming as a hobby aren't the same as people learning it at a school/university. Hobby programmers learning languages by using them little by little so they can get good enough to have fun with programming as a hobby. Someone who was training for a lifetime of using programming as their work would need to step their game up a lot higher, and thus would need a better foundation.

15 min later 30003677 Anonymous (ImageFromVideo[1].png 394x315 60kB)
>>30003607 >shouldn't be easy Alright, then let's actually make it hard. You have to design your own language that compiles to your own machine code on your own machine that you designed and built in a universe you created. This picture is how they teach math to little kids. It's never been sink or swim. And I guarantee you that if life were sink or swim you'd be a dead man. You're just autistic about something you like.

15 min later 30003682 Anonymous
>>30003660 A tutorial that really doesn't answer the fundamentals. A good read though. Better than the Introduction to Functional Programming with Haskell book I had for my Functional Programming class.

15 min later 30003688 Anonymous
>>30003607 >becoming a good programmer shouldn't be easy either CS is rapidly becoming a lib-arts/basket weaving thing though, so it has to be hard. CE is now treated like what CS was in the 80s and 90s, in one "introductory" class they just expect you to pickup/already know assembly.

16 min later 30003700 Anonymous
>>30003655 >absolute bullshit coming from an autist One day you're going to look back on your life and start thinking outside the autistic box you live in. The dread you feel about having wasted your entire life being a fucking moron is going to make you cry with whatever strength you have left before the shock kills you.

16 min later 30003701 Anonymous
>>30003677 >This picture is how they teach math to little kids. >little kids. >in college

17 min later 30003729 Anonymous
>>30003688 I don't know how it is taught at your university. At mine it isn't a liberal arts cakewalk.

18 min later 30003732 Anonymous
>>30003700 thanks for the laugh, kid

18 min later 30003735 Anonymous (1355864602182.png 1209x798 106kB)


19 min later 30003749 Anonymous
>>30003664 The issue is that there are so many languages out there that you have to learn to be a good programmer it really doesn't matter. It's not like you're learning a purely dead language that isn't even slightly related to anything in any way. You're learning functional pure programming and those lessons carry over. You'd know that if you'd ever actually learned programming at all. >>30003688 Are you a complete moron? Do you even know what assembly is or that it's different for every machine architecture? They expected you to pick it up because the machines were simple then and you could push them to their limits with nothing else. If you took a class on programming the NES they'd have you dive in with their assembler because you're sure as fuck not not going to be using anything made with Visual Studio on there.

21 min later 30003799 Anonymous (30273.jpg 150x146 11kB)
>>30003749 Holy shit dude you need to chill the fuck out. You're a l337 programmer who knows all languages and their syntax 110%. We get it. You > Us. Goddamn kid go polish your fucking knob and take a nap.

24 min later 30003854 Anonymous
>>30003664 this. you said it better than I ever could lol

25 min later 30003873 Anonymous
>>30003799 Right, so now it's obvious that this entire thread is the blind leading the blind. We have OP who posted a hostile, ignorant question, >>30003430 who thinks that programming somehow means cracking out lines of code and nothing else, captain C++ syntax in >>30003560 , maximum autism in >>30003607 , >>30003688 who clearly didn't take CS in the 80s or 90s, strawman faggot fuck in >>30003701 , and now overly defensive faggot fuck in >>30003799 . So many people who have such great wishes and ideals about how programmers should program, so few people who even begin to understand the field.

31 min later 30003966 Anonymous
>>30003873 >who thinks that programming somehow means cracking out lines of code and nothing els Quite frankly, idiots like you that think it's an "art maaaan" or something don't belong in /g/

36 min later 30004025 Anonymous
>>30003966 You are the worst kind of person. Programming is applied logic, not autistic coding. It's like having an architectural engineer berated by a menial worker his inability to perfectly align a power drill and drive a nail exactly right.

39 min later 30004086 Anonymous
>>30003873 >who clearly didn't take CS in the 80s or 90s Maybe not, but I know CS back then was taught by engineering schools as opposed to business schools. Back then, I'd also assume we had less people applying to become the next Zuckerberg or whatever.

44 min later 30004193 Anonymous
>>30004086 >blah blah No, you really don't even have any idea of how this shit works. CS then wasn't CS now. They were working on machines to try to get them to calculate something. Every CS student in the world was working on machinery with the combined power of something weaker than a single lab today. And business schools still don't teach CS, they just teach people to code what they need to code for whatever work they'll be doing because coding, not programming, is a useful tool. CS, even in the bizarre way you meant it, still exists and it's still deeply seated in math and engineering. It's also not going to involve any assembly or anything low level because we have the machine power to where it doesn't need to anymore so people can concentrate on their field rather than dinking around with tools they never wanted to meddle in.

45 min later 30004200 Anonymous
>>30004025 >You are the worst kind of person. Programming is applied logic, not autistic coding. you're not making sense here if you know what you're doing, there's no magic in programming. if you feel that there is, it's just because you're a mediocre programmer

45 min later 30004203 Anonymous
>>30004193 code that they need to code

46 min later 30004213 Anonymous
>>30004200 Programming is applied logic, something you don't have. So sorry your autism makes you think programming actually has more than a undesirably necessary connection with the coding languages you jerk off to.

49 min later 30004265 Anonymous
>>30004193 >>blah blah nice quote

50 min later 30004283 Anonymous
>>30004193 >we have the machine power to where it doesn't need to anymore so people can concentrate on their field First year CS? First year CS!

51 min later 30004291 Anonymous
>>30004213 again, you're a complete retard. if you wanna know what's going on, then it's language dependent. script kiddies like you who just code and 'mire should just GTFO of /g/ and fyi, retard, autists are the most logical people there are

57 min later 30004394 Anonymous
>>30004265 The guy I was quoting was so goddamn moronic he didn't deserve any better. >>30004283 And now we have someone who has never taken CS suddenly realizing that he's insulting someone else for "first year CS". >>30004291 Autism at max here. Autistic people are logical to themselves. They create a structure of logic and then follow it. The ones who create a structure of logic that can't be reconciled by how the world actually works lose societal function because of that. Don't even fucking talk like you begin to understand how autism works just because you saw some news thing online or on TV. As for programming, the languages themselves are as transient and malleable as the ones we use to speak to one another, often even more so. You can keep shouting script kiddie until your autistic face is blue but that doesn't change the fact that your misguided desire to study one language to its fullest won't be completely negated by how everyone else involved in the equation is constantly ripping out the rug from under your feet by changing compilers, machine code, and machines themselves. That extra 0.1% speed you got by spending a year optimizing your code may as well be the ripple left by a pebble dropped into an ocean.

58 min later 30004415 Anonymous
>>30004394 You're really not making a great case for yourself, the most ignorant people generally pretend they know the most.

59 min later 30004438 Anonymous
>>30004415 >most ignorant people pretend they know the most Except you can't even begin to counter argue against what I'm saying. Just because you're offended and have some fun little quote to throw into the fray doesn't make you right.

1 hours later 30004451 Anonymous
>>30004438 Neither have you.

1 hours later 30004468 Anonymous
>>30004451 Who are you, and what are you arguing?

1 hours later 30004489 Anonymous
>>30004394 > logic that can't be reconciled by how the world actually works formal logic has fuck all to do with societal conventions or social skills where do morons like you even come from?

1 hours later 30004494 Anonymous
>>30004468 I'm arguing that you're an idiot, nothing more, nothing less. It's actually the exact same argument you're using as well, or variations thereof. You've called X amount of people an idiot, I'm calling you an idiot in response.

1 hours later 30004533 Anonymous
>>30004494 Right, so you're one of the people above who either had some mean words to say about how programmers can't all just jerk off to optimizing their code on a specific language or how you're mad that programmers these days don't have to build their own core tools just like they didn't have to build their own universe 40 years ago. I've replied to every single person and pointed out exactly why they're wrong. I don't know which of those you are, but the first thing I got from you is >>30004415 , a completely bullshit argument that makes you feel good because it's a saying that makes people sound smart when they have nothing of substance to say.

1 hours later 30004717 Anonymous
>>30004533 >going full retard >2012

1 hours later 30004737 Anonymous
>>30004717 You enjoy your stupid bullshit, and you just keep on screaming about how the world doesn't work the way you want it to until either it changes or you pass out. My money's on you passing out and shitting yourself.

1 hours later 30004768 Anonymous
>>30004533 >>30004394 You're the typical jack of all traits. All yo have is pretentiousness, really. You're never gonna succeed in the real world with this attitude.

1 hours later 30004794 Anonymous
>>30000000

1 hours later 30004856 Anonymous
>>30004768 First off, we're not in the real world, you're having your retarded misconceptions shit on on the internet. Second, you're telling me that having a proper understanding of various subjects thereby negates my ability to ever excel in any one of them? Sounds like you're not giving humanity enough credit, or worse you're somehow expecting that having even rudimentary knowledge of more than one thing necessarily implies that it's impossible to learn in depth. Third, 10/10 if you've been trolling. I only caught the pattern of spelling mistakes in key idioms and phrases just now.

1 hours later 30004859 Anonymous
>>30004737 >My money's on you passing out and shitting yourself. A whole 5 dollars?

1 hours later 30005094 Anonymous
>>30004856 >Sounds like you're not giving humanity enough credit it's actually well known that people can't keep in mind all the elements and style patterns of any given advanced language, let alone many

1 hours later 30005117 Anonymous
>>30005094 mind=head

1 hours later 30005232 Anonymous
>>30005094 Oh wow, so you really are that autistic. You're going to devote your life to learning one language to its fullest, completely unaware that no matter how good you get the fact that you can only code in one language makes you infinitely less useful than an actual programmer, especially when all of your wasted time seeking optimizations are trumped by the forward march of a collective of millions of other engineers who are completely rebuilding the foundation you're standing on and the structure that surrounds you. Autism at its finest. Just like I already said. >It's like having an architectural engineer berated by a menial worker his inability to perfectly align a power drill and drive a nail exactly right.

1 hours later 30005388 Steve Ballmer
>>30003966 Yes they do. You on the other hand don't. Go to javaranch or stackoverflow or whatever the fuck the stupid programmer site du jour is. >>30004193 So, I have this program, and I need to know when the program is done running. Can you make me a program that reads my program and either gives me an integer representing the cpu cycles it will need, or just an error message if it won't finish? Very high level pseudocode will be fine. >you\ should\ be\ able\ to\ solve\ this.jpg >>30005117 > Computer = Program Stop the massive simplifications, please. Aaanyway, why isn't SICP written for C? Let's get an actual answer going. First of all, you could read SICP. They sort of give their reasoning in the intro, IIRC. Secondly, it's an easy language to learn. It has little syntax, and it has some neat means of combination and means of abstraction. (This is pretty much straight from the first chapter of SICP). So you have a language that is well suited to express the sorts of problems that they want to show you, it sort of hints at how ASTs work, and it is very easy to learn. Contrast this with C. How do I make a new operator in C? How do I use a function as an argument in C? How do I use the C interpreter? How does the equivalent of apply and eval work in C? What about map? Collections? The only real argument would be that you shouldn't have to learn new languages all the time, which is poppycock. (I love that word.) If you can only manage to learn one language ever, please don't take CS. Take something else. Like French Cultural Studies or something.

1 hours later 30005409 Anonymous
>>30005232 your fixation on autism is adorable but what I said is a very common observation coming from infinitely respected people in the field, not just me

1 hours later 30005489 Anonymous (old-hand-drill-small[1].jpg 661x510 79kB)
>>30005409 Call to authority on top of an obvious exaggeration, especially to an authority that only exists in your autistic head. You're like a guy who's great at using the hand drill. When your tool gets replaced by a power drill, those years spent honing your skills to use the hand drill 1% faster than the next guy all go right the fuck out the window.

2 hours later 30005576 Anonymous
>>30005489 you're too dumb to not have respect for authority

2 hours later 30005641 Anonymous
>>30005576 You're clearly too stupid to realize that making up an authority in your head because it agrees with the magically autistic way you want the world works doesn't count as an actual authority.

2 hours later 30005649 Anonymous
>>30005641 wished

2 hours later 30005934 Anonymous
>>30005388 >How do I make a new operator in C? Declare new function. If it really bothers you that "operators" and "functions" look different, get to work declaring stuff like: double plus(double a, double b) { return a + b; } >How do I use a function as an argument in C? Function pointer, but yeah, they're messy. C++11 has lambda functions and std::function, which is a lot neater. >How do I use the C interpreter? Why would you want an interpreter over a compiler? >How does the equivalent of apply and eval work in C? What about map? Collections? ... muh turing complete.

2 hours later 30005962 Anonymous
>>30005934 >interpreter over a compiler? To learn with before you get into language specifics.

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